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re: Champion Class Discussion 8-2-20

Meadowlarke says, 'Well, it is starting time and some folks are late.'

Meadowlarke says, 'I know nothing of championseeze. Hobbits can't champion and champions can't hobbit.'

Darishy says, 'been a long time since i played mine'

Ruith says, 'I haven't played one since this morning.'

Meadowlarke says, 'I am a hobbit. Everybody I am related to is a hobbit. And everybody who works for me is a hobbit. Except one dwarf. How he got in there . . . we're still trying to figure that out.'

Meadowlarke says, 'So, let's talk Champions.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Champions . . . what are they good for?'

Grammer says, 'Absolutely nothin - say it again'

Rebra says, 'well, by the looks of things behind you...whacking things'

You say, 'We can hit a lot of foes at once.'

Ruith says, 'Wack it, wack it good!'

Glofinwing says, 'Hi Bo and Grammer!'

Rebra says, 'hey bo'

Ruith says, 'Bo is my favorite champion of all tea-time.'

Meadowlarke says, 'We just started, Bohunk. I was asking what Champions do. Folks said they are crowd bashers.'

Bohunk says, 'Hi everyone, sorry I am late'

Meadowlarke says, 'You're not late. You're just untimely.'

Ruith says, 'We are also boss bashers. Like hunters but we don't cower in the back. Er, I meant glower, that's it, glower.'

Bohunk says, 'and if you cannot find a Guardian meat shields'

Meadowlarke says, 'Are these the three different colors of champions?'

Grammer says, 'I don't do crowds, but that's me'

Rebra says, 'perhaps he ahs learned the hobbit custome of never being late. he arrived precisely when he was supposed to'

Ruith says, 'That's wizards, and that's for another classy discussion.'

Darishy says, 'Hiyas Bo, Grammer and Leifrin *hugs all*'

Bohunk says, 'I like yellow and Red myself'

You say, 'Our blue line is a tanking line, but that's the least played of the lines.'

Ruith says, 'I've been a champion for over a thousand years, and I'm still late half the time.'

Glofinwing says, 'Hi Leifrin!'

Ruith says, 'Blue line is not as good as it once was, and it once wasn't all that great. It's a challenge to do blue line effectively.'

Bohunk says, 'since they no longer let us use a shield'

Leifrin says, 'hiya glowy'

Ruith says, 'Blue line requires some understanding from the rest of the fellowship.'

You say, 'So like Bo said, most just use red and yellow lines.'

Meadowlarke says, 'There's a flock of champions in Eclair. How would one use a Champion efficiently?'

Grammer says, 'But every champ should get Second Wind, from the blue line'

Ruith says, 'Point the champion where you want to go, wind it up, and let go.'

Bohunk says, 'Yellow when AOE is important otherwise Red'

Leifrin says, 'i have red and blue'

You say, 'If you have multiple champions, you should make sure is red line and one is yellow line.'

Grammer says, 'Me, too, Leifrin'

Ruith says, 'Hmm, I don't have second wind. I used to, but power has not been an issue for me or fellowships for some time.'

You say, 'And if you have more then two champions, the others can choose depending on the fight.'

Leifrin says, 'sorry i was late .. what have i missed so far ?'

You say, 'Same. Second wind is probably better as you're leveling.'

Meadowlarke says, 'We just started discussing Champion colors'

Leifrin says, 'where is second wind ?'

Meadowlarke says, 'It is in the blue set.'

Ruith says, 'you only missed the traditional presentation of the chicken, but it's gone back go its coop now.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Right?'

You say, 'The only thing you missed was about talk of if we knew the rug or not.'

Grammer says, 'Erikin with the Eclarians has run out of power several times. He needs to learn how to take a breath'

Leifrin says, 'ahhh i have it'

Meadowlarke says, 'Don't sit back there. Come forward where folks can see you.'

Glofinwing says, 'And you might have missed Ruith insulting hunters'

You say, 'Yes, it can be helpful. And it's great if there's no captain in the group.'

Meadowlarke says, 'What does Second Wind do?'

Ruith says, 'I am normally red line with 25 points in yellow as an off trait, and pretty much the same when I am in yellow line.'

You say, 'It's a power restore.'

Ruith says, 'Second wind gives you power.'

Leifrin says, '*gasps* insulting hunters???'

Ruith says, 'But we also have True Heroics which consumes power but shares with the rest of the group, which I do use now and then.'

Bohunk says, 'but take 5 fervour'

Meadowlarke says, 'Ah, right. You have fervors.'

Darishy says, '?'

Ruith says, 'True Heroics gives you some extra crits too, so you can use it even if selfish.'

Darishy says, 'So mostly red line wiha touch of yellow?'

Darishy says, 'with*'

You say, 'Are you in red line, Ruith?'

Bohunk says, 'so it can take us a bit to get rolling on damage'

Ruith says, 'mostly red line with a lot of yellow.'

Grammer says, 'Battle Frenzy (yellow) raises fervor quickly.'

You say, 'True Heroics in yellow gives 10% melee damage. Is it different in red?'

Leifrin says, 'i have question'

Ruith says, 'you fill up fevour almost instantly, and keeps it mostly very high until the cooldown on it is up.'

Ruith says, '10% crit.'

Meadowlarke says, 'There's a question over here.'

You say, 'Interesting.'

Ruith says, 'and attack curation'

You say, 'Is that the guy that puts all the attacks in order?'

Ruith says, 'sorry, +10% to enemy duration, not the champion's'

Meadowlarke says, 'Go ahead, Leifrin. Just burst in and ask.'

Bohunk says, 'I should switch to using that, looks nice'

Leifrin says, '1 .. is someone taking notes on this ? and 2 .. in red . there is a spot that wont take points . is it not good anymore'

Ruith says, 'My smial mate was mostly using yellow line. When I showed up I decided to use red line mostly.'

You say, 'Yes, I'm taking notes.'

Ruith says, 'I don't put any points into hamstring, or athletic (run speed)'

Ruith says, 'Or wild swings, as I don't use wild attack much at all.'

You say, 'Or ebbing Ire.'

Grammer says, 'I agree on Athletic - also Ebbing Ire'

Meadowlarke says, 'I will have notes iffen they are needed, but Amireth is the usual notary.'

Ruith says, 'I do use ebbing ire, once every other month. It's another point I could save.'

You say, 'I use Wild Attack for the crit buff.'

Leifrin says, 'what aobut the 2nd question i had ?'

Meadowlarke says, 'Which spot, Leifrin?'

You say, 'Were you asking where you don't put points in red line?'

Leifrin says, 'deep strikes'

Leifrin says, 'it wont take points'

Leifrin says, 'so they took it away from us ?'

You say, 'You should put points there, but you need to fill up deadly strikes and vicious strikes first.'

Ruith says, 'I put 3 points in deep strikes. that bleed happens a lot and is useful.'

You say, 'Those three traits are all connected. So you need to fill the 2nd tier one first. Then you can fill the 3rd tier one. Then you can put points into Deep Strikes.'

Grammer says, 'Yes, I have all the strikes full. The arrows from skill to skill shows that you need to fill the earlier skills to unlock the later ones - regardless of overall skill levelling'

You say, '[It's tough to see on the red, but there's orange dots between the three trait there)'

Leifrin says, 'would it be good to have some yellow with the red line ?'

Grammer says, 'Red is best for 1-v-1 fighting. Yellow is best for 1-v-crowds'

Ruith says, 'yes, but get down to fill up what you want in Red first. But get Battle Frenzy, even at lower levels!'

You say, 'Yes. Red/yellow it the traditional way to go there. Red/blue is a little more sturdy, but red/yellow is better damage.'

Leifrin says, 'you can fill the entire red line and have points left over'

Leifrin says, 'so would yellow be good .. or blue'

Grammer says, 'For RP reasons, I don't play yellow line. I largely play Blue'

Ruith says, 'and when you can, build down towards Ardent Rage in yellow line.'

You say, 'Yes. Battle Frenzy is probably the most important skill champions have.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Why is that?'

Ruith says, 'My drawback with blue is that it feels very slow, and it builds up threat slowly too as a consequence.'

Leifrin says, 'whre is that'

Leifrin says, 'you guys going so fast'

Ruith says, 'Battle Frenzy gives you fervour generation without you using fervour builders.'

You say, 'Battle Frenzy restores fervour, which we need to do our big attacks.'

Ruith says, 'Battle Frenzy is row one of yellow book.'

Leifrin says, 'ahhh ok'

Leifrin says, 'am glad you taking notes .. im so lost'

You say, 'And below it on the 3rd tier is Ardent Rage, which makes Battle Frenzy better.'

Bohunk says, 'Battle Frenzy yellow top left, straight down is Ardent Rage'

You say, 'More fervour, and lower cooldown.'

Leifrin says, 'we want the rage too ??'

Ruith says, 'but you have to put points in other yellow before you can get to Ardent Rage.'

Grammer says, 'If you aren't focused on Red line, spend the points to get Brutal Strikes anyway'

Bohunk says, 'that might be hard at your level to get there'

Ruith says, 'Ardent Rage lets you start off with full fervour, and shorten the cooldown'

You say, 'It can be. So sometimes yellow is better as you're leveling.'

Ruith says, 'So, focus on red, but get Battle Frenzy early-ish, Then when you feel very powerful already (level 2 or higher), try to build down little by little in yellow to Ardent Rage'

You say, 'So you can get the good battle frenzy easier. Plus you can take on multiple foes easier.'

Ruith says, 'The advantage is that you have to put some points in Yellow anyway, so you can ge tthe better bladewall and blade damage.'

Meadowlarke says, 'I hope folks are understanding this. As a not-champion, it's like you're speaking some form of elfish.'

Ruith says, 'These are all different words for hitting things really hard.'

Ruith says, 'Thing of Battle Frenzy as a power chord.'

You say, 'We have some skills that earn fervour, and some that consume fervour. Our bigger hits consume fervour, so we want to earn fervour as fast and as often as we can.'

Meadowlarke says, 'ARe these ideas all for both travelling alone and fellowshipping?'

You say, 'Which is where Battle Frenzy/Ardent Rage come in.'

Ruith says, 'yes, for both, if you're doing red line.'

Ruith says, 'If you use red versus yellow is more about fighting a small number at once or a large number at once.'

Meadowlarke says, 'So, champions are just for hitting hard. Kinda like hunters without range. Right?'

Leifrin says, 'are horns used much ?'

Grammer says, 'I don't recall where it is, but there is a red skill that brings fervor back to full whenever an opponent falls'

Bohunk says, 'Red and Yellow depends on what you are fight, Red is good for small number of foe, yellow when doing large mobs'

Ruith says, 'I use horns most often soloing than in groups. but it can be handy in groups depending upon the situation.'

Meadowlarke says, 'There's different kinds of horns?'

You say, 'Is 5th done on the red traits. Over on the left.'

Ruith says, 'Sometimes you can defeat an enemy in one strike, which makes up for the fact that you only attacked just one.'

You say, 'The red specific traits.'

Grammer says, 'Byrnur was doing the Seven Swords instance in Angmar. He was over-level, so he was trying to solo a 3-man instance'

Grammer says, 'Killing the mobs wasn't the problem - keeping the NPC alive was another matter'

You say, 'We should talk a little about when to use red and when to use yellow.'

Ruith says, 'One horn that every champion gets, plus another type in blue.'

Meadowlarke says, 'When do you use red and when do you use yellow?'

You say, 'That's a good question, Chief!'

Grammer says, 'He found that the battles took about the same amount of time, whether he was in Red or Yellow'

Meadowlarke says, 'It just came to me.'

Grammer says, 'The difference being that in Yellow, all the mobs survived thru about 6 hits - then they died together'

Ruith says, 'it's often personal preference. One-on-one, red line is much stronger. But against a lot of foes Yellow does better.'

You say, 'The basic answer is it just depends on how many you're fighting. If you're fighting one at a time, red is good. If you're fighting groups, yellow is good.'

Grammer says, 'But in Red, the mobs fell mostly after 1 hit, leaving fewer up to do damage'

Ruith says, 'At near max level you have a bit of both no matter what line you're in. So I have the yellow line Shing-Shing even in red line.'

You say, 'So in groups, some will do yellow for foes in instances leading up to the boss. But then switch to red for the boss fight, if it's a single boss.'

You say, 'But it also depends on your group, too.'

Ruith says, 'My legendary weapon has a bit of both also. For flexibility.'

You say, 'In red, we have devastating Strike, which increases melee damage by 10%.'

Ruith says, 'In some fights, you're told to not use Area of Effect.'

Grammer says, 'Yellow is definately less efficient when only facing 1 baddy'

You say, 'So if you're in a group with burglars and wardens, red is better.'

Ruith says, 'don't say "burglar", they frighten me.'

You say, 'But yellow has Rend, which is takes off the armor of a foe. So everyone in the group will benifit from that. So if you have rune-keepers and hunters, red might be better.'

Grammer says, 'And if skirmishing, the Priest of Vengance does bad things to Yellow champs'

You say, '(Assuming hunters don't benefit from +melee damage)'

Leifrin says, 'which is the preferred .. dual wield with axes .. two handed axes ?'

Ruith says, 'ah, a very debated question of the ages.'

Ruith says, 'Try both as you level and decide what you like.'

Grammer says, 'Byrnur uses axe and hammer - both 1-handed weapons'

Grammer says, 'But he's a Dwarf'

Leifrin says, 'can we talk legacies ?'

Ruith says, 'Two-handed is slower but hits much heavier. But it is slower to respond to a changing situation.'

Leifrin says, 'whats wrong with dwarves ?'

You say, 'I've always dual wielded. But I am in the process of making a 1-handed weapon.'

You say, 'A 2 handed weapon, I mean.'

Grammer says, 'Nothing wrong with Dwarves - you know how they are about their axes'

Meadowlarke says, 'Are there circumstances where one option is better than the other?'

Ruith says, 'Dual wield means you can switch to a new enemy and interrupt it much faster, if needed. For example. Plus I think you can get more stats that way.'

Ruith says, 'I think two-handed is more common in the Ettenmoors, but I may be out of date there.'

You say, 'Some champions will swap back and forth between the two during the fight. But I'm not very good at that.'

Ruith says, 'My gut feel is that two-handed may be a bit better if you focus more on AoE in yellow. And dual better with Red.'

Ruith says, 'I never measured though.'

Leifrin says, 'i haven't gotten far on my LIs .. but what legacies are good to have'

Leifrin says, 'i don't want to make the mistake i have with my hunter and have some legacies i dont want and not wanting to really do the grind again on the scrolls'

Ruith says, 'For yellow builds, yuou want Rend armor reduction, aoe damage.'

Meadowlarke says, 'What legacies are bad to have?'

You say, 'Battle Frenzy cooldown is a good one. But mostly it's just the damage ones. Crit damage. AOE damage. etc.'

Ruith says, 'for anyone, you watn battle frezy cooldown, crit damage multiplier. i also added Fear Nothing cooldown (poison removals)'

Ruith says, 'For red line, Relentless/Remorseless strikes improvement'

Grammer says, 'Everyone is talking Red and Yellow. I still like my Blue line. Riposte hits up to 3 targets, can't be blocked, parried or evaded - always hits'

Ruith says, 'mine is a mix of the two, so I have two legacies for Rend that I rarely use. But I'm already overpowered...'

You say, 'Blue line will be sturdy, you just won't do much damage.'

Leifrin says, 'really ?'

Meadowlarke says, 'Is blue a defensive line?'

Leifrin says, 'blue don't do much ?'

You say, 'It is. It's the tank line for champions.'

Bohunk says, 'can you tank ok with'

Bohunk says, 'tank with Blue?'

You say, 'For a lot of things, sure.'

Grammer says, 'Dire Need - trades 30% of your power and feeds back 4x that much as Morale - double that when Improved'

Ruith says, 'Now that I look, I can replace a few of my legacies.'

You say, 'For the tougher things you'd want a captain or guardian, probalby.'

Grammer says, 'I'll always top off with Second Wind just before hitting Dire Need'

Ruith says, 'yup, that's the main benefit to Second Wind these days I think, I used it quite a bit when tanking in blue'

Ruith says, 'or when leveling, second wind is good there. Different level ranges have different power problems.'

Leifrin says, 'im thinkin i may need to respec'

Leifrin says, 'red with some yellow ..'

Ruith says, 'I did tank the big troll in Dread Terror in Red, but I think I had a really really really good healer.'

Meadowlarke says, 'I am glad to hear that, Leifrin. It tells me this class was useful.'

You say, 'Or you can do yellow with some red.'

Leifrin says, 'but not blue ?'

Ruith says, 'I did put 4 points over in Blue line Aggressive Exchange. This triggers when you use blade-wall in any line. And is handy.'

Bohunk says, 'I am respecing right now, many of these ideas are great'

Grammer says, 'Stalwart Blade - blue line, top rank - parry buff and bonus Vitality'

Leifrin says, 'everyone plays different'

Leifrin says, 'i solo mostly'

Leifrin says, 'have not been in a group situation'

You say, 'I always put 1 point into Stalwart Blade. Since you get the most bang for your buck doing that.'

Meadowlarke says, 'I am going to send the Eclairs notes on how to use the champions.'

Leifrin says, 'and i am probably low on points too'

Rebra says, 'that would be good. one of them sked me about it. i think she was palnnig on coming'

Ruith says, 'Now the important thing to know, is what to do if you think a burglar is sneaking up on you. And that's run.'

Grammer says, 'As RP, I'm an old lady. I won't fight groups of things. I am mostly defensive (blue), but I still habe Brutal Strikes and Battle Frenzy'

Leifrin says, 'my bro would have been here but he's making supper'

Leifrin says, 'at my level .. how many points should i have .. roughly ?'

Rebra says, '30'

Meadowlarke says, 'Next month is Captains, by the way . . . might as well mention that while I am remembering.'

Rebra says, 'oops, thats wron'

Ruith says, 'Hmm, I have a 65 champ, but I havent' inspected in awhile. You probably won't have enough to go into a side-tree very far.'

You say, 'Chief would know.'

Darishy says, 'i have 22 but i need to work on some deeds for sure'

Meadowlarke says, '44 points at Level 60, iffen you count class points and points from epic battles.'

Ruith says, 'if you mostly solo, it's not so critical though. A champion is like a hunter in that even if you play badly you do pretty well.'

Leifrin says, '44 points?'

Leifrin says, 'eeeekkkkk'

Meadowlarke says, 'If you have done your epic battles. 42 if elsewise.'

Ruith says, 'I found the best for champion is to make sure you always have a great weapon and great armor. Kill things faster, and keep alive longer. If one of those falters then you find that things are tougher when leveling.'

Leifrin says, 'i guess i need go deeding'

Leifrin says, 'only 28 points'

Bohunk says, 'kill them before they kill you, it is a race'

Ruith says, 'For any class, always work on those class deeds. It's an extra point which is always handy.'

Leifrin says, 'all my racial traits are done'

Grammer says, 'Byrnur is a lvl 121 champ. He did a lot of solo skirmishing. Up until lvl 100, he would take duo (2) skirmishes solo, easily. Or single skirms at lvl+4, also easy'

Grammer says, 'After lvl 100, that didn't work anymore'

Meadowlarke says, 'I can trust that the Eclairians have all the class trait points they can get. They are thorough.'

Leifrin says, 'what virtues are good ?'

Grammer says, 'Zeal and Loyalty'

Ruith says, 'Once you can do it, killing a group of enemies in a skirmish as you run past without stopping is always fun :-)'

You say, 'Defensive ones as you level, usually.'

Ruith says, 'I'm a big fan of defensive as well. but if you can get Wit, that's handy too.'

You say, 'Tactical mitigation ones especially. And some physical mit ones. Fidelity. Tolerance. Innocence.'

Ruith says, 'I also have Valour and Confidence for offensive virtues.'

Grammer says, 'Zeal and Valour for offense'

Ruith says, '(virtues shouldn't be offensive, but there you go :-)'

Ruith says, 'I think I decided that I have enough Physical Mastery, and more won't help as much as getting more Critical.'

Ruith says, 'But work on lots of virtues, so you can get the passive benefits too.'

Ruith says, 'Maybe rule of thing is half goes into Physical Master, half into Critical. When it comes to gear or essences maybe. but sometimes what you have on you is more important.'

Ruith says, 'Other questions?'

Meadowlarke says, 'Aye, folks seem to be getting distracted. Are we done here?'

Ruith says, 'Disagreements? Arguments? Fist-fights? Hugs?'

Leifrin says, 'my head is still spinnin over this stuff'

Meadowlarke says, 'Best get your questions answered . . . we won't be championing for another 2 years.'

Darishy says, '?'

Glofinwing says, '2 years!'

Leifrin says, 'ami will always be around to answer any'

Darishy says, 'So for a young CHampion which virtue wshould you go with at first?'

Rebra says, 'its a two year cycle'

Ruith says, 'Next year is the unclassy year?'

Rebra says, 'aye, and the last two months of this year'

Grammer says, 'Zeal gets yu the Might bonus'

Meadowlarke says, 'Aye, every even-humbered year we discuss classes. Every odd numbered year we discuss things like legendary items, virtues, armours and weapons, stats, and the like.'

Ruith says, 'confidence or valour maybe.'

Darishy says, 'okies'

Glofinwing says, 'Oh yes, I forgot!'

Ruith says, 'For me, I don't bother with +might much at all. It doesn't have the same bang for the buck it used to. But it is more useful at lower levels.'

Darishy says, 'okies'

Grammer says, 'Innocence gets Phys Mit'

Ruith says, '100+ it seems that physical master outranks it a lot.'

Darishy says, 'i need to work on the innonce and a lot of the virtues'

Darishy says, 'thank you all'

Ruith says, 'at the least, practice the innocent look.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Aye, that seemed useful. And nobody died.'

Grammer says, 'Valour gives the PhysMastery'

Ruith says, 'Finesse is handy, but mostly at higher levels or if you do instances.'

Meadowlarke says, 'We will have a whole class devoted to virtues, particularly owing to the changes.'

Darishy says, 'i have zeal, confidence, valour, afidelty'

Darishy says, 'and i can't type'

Grammer says, 'I share 3 of those with you - not Confidence'

Grammer says, 'I am levelling Charity for Resistance and Phys Mit - the bit of Vitality doesn't hurt, either'

Ruith says, 'Good critical is great, red or yellow line. Each hit on a different enemy, or each of those 3 strikes in a single skill, has a chance to hit. Even the bleeds have a chance to crit.'

Ruith says, 'Vitality is always handy'

Darishy says, 'oo i can put in charity'

Grammer says, 'Loyalty is always an early pick'

Ruith says, 'Fidelity too maybe, but not as much tactical damage at lower levels when soloing.'

Darishy says, 'most definetely need to work on this one'

You say, 'But your tact mit will be really now, so any foe that does tactical damage will hit you very, very hard.'

You say, 'So I always do fidelity and tolerance when I'm leveling. And innocence and honor and loyalty.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Remember that advice when we have our virtues class.'

You say, 'tact mit will be really low, I meant to say.'

You say, 'Remember to use Horn of Gondor a lot. Stunning foes is very helpful.'

Meadowlarke says, 'Well . . . we have gone past our time.'

You say, 'And Feral Strikes should ONLY be used when you want to remove a corruption. (At high level, at least. I don't remember when champions get all their damage skills)'

Meadowlarke says, 'Note that this is the month of the chicken so there will be chickenny stuff going on all month.'

Bohunk says, 'what do you think of Justice?'

You say, 'It isn't great.'

Meadowlarke says, 'We should include chickens in our list of classes. Right after bearfolk we can do Chickenfolk.'

Ruith says, 'in combat morale regen isn't so great anymore. Especially at high levels.'

Bohunk says, 'ok thanks'

You say, 'That's a good idea, Chief!'

Ruith says, 'but you can work on everything, for the passive bonus, once you've got the virtues you like.'

Darishy says, 'yeah that is what i did for Shyala'


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